Why this snobby attitude about ''rea ...

It seems I've been seeing a lot more people reply to an opinion on *insert any RPG title here* by measuring it's validity as a ''real'' RPG. Most noticeably on topics regarding Oblivion and it's comparison to the ''fakes'' out there. There are a few things I don't understand however. The first is what makes an RPG ''real''? The basic definition of a RPG is a game in which you assume the role of another person/character. Of course using that simplistic approach, ANY game would be a RPG, so there is obviously more to it. I'm not interested in hammering out a detailed definition (because honestly there would be no consensus), but I think the majority of us can agree it's a game that allows for more detailed control over your character. Specifically there is some type of ''leveling'' up system and you, as the player, are given a certain amount of freedom to tweak your character in a number of ways. Whether through skills, attributes, weapons or armour. But I'm getting off topic. There seems to have developed this attitude that some of the RPG's out on the market, are not in fact RPG's, and you're simple/stupid/unrefined/less of a gamer if you don't like the ''real'' ones. This is despite the fact that these ''fakes'' adhere to the definition noted above and truly are RPG's. Just as there are many different types of FPS's or RTS's, there are many types of RPG's. Not every FPS, for example, is an exact cookie cutter or each other. If that was the case there would be no debate on which one was better, as they would all be the same. This is true of all games; within each game type there are similarities that help to classify it as a FPS, RTS, RPG, Platformer, etc but there is also a lot of room for every developer to define their own game. Perhaps RPG's have more room to do so than some of the others, but every type has some none the less. I guess that bothers me most, is that boiled down to it's basics, this all comes down to opinion. If you like Oblivion more than Mass Effect. KOTOR more than Blue Dragon. FF more than Fable. Whatever it is, it's just your opinion. And if asked your opinion why do people have such a hard time, just giving that. It's as though few people feel confident enough with their feelings to have them stand alone. Instead of just praising their favourite game, they also have to insult anyone who doesn't share that sentiment. They create this sub-category of ''real'' RPG's and then imply that if you don't like them, then there is something wrong with you. These ''snobs'' just come across as self-conscious and desperate for the approval of the community at large. Worried they might have made the ''wrong'' choice by liking one thing over another (or not liking something someone else does). Why can't people simply offer their own opinions on a subject and be happy to do so, without degrading into a flame war? More importantly, why would someone want to appear this way? Is snob the new black?Edit: due to double paste error. Why this snobby attitude about ''rea ...
First of all, cut down the several paragraphs that you repeated in your post. LOL. It might lead people to think that it's larger than it truly is :DBut I agree with you wholeheartedly. There should be no nitpicking about what a real RPG is. We shouldn't need the approval (let alone opinion) of anyone else to enjoy the games we enjoy.The only person I've seen doing this kind of stuff, though, is ''great_rulo''. Even his signature gives him that air; as if he knows more about RPGs than anyone alive.:PWhy this snobby attitude about ''rea ...
I read about two paragraphs. I apologize for being rude. It's just that I'm not in much of a mood to read a lot of content. An RPG is an RPG, there is no ''REAL'' RPG. If it fits into the category of role-playing (no dirty thoughts now) elements then it's an RPG. And Snob has been the new Black. Apparently, being a jerk is in, and Mr. Nice Guys are out the window. The ladies seem to feel that way as well.
I think you hit ''paste'' twice there. No matter. I watched an interview with I think Feargus Urquart, and he defined an RPG as a game where numbers define your in-game abilities: A level 15 character beats a level 8 character, a character with 17 strength will be better with a sword than a character with 11 strength, so on and so forth. This is certainly a feature of Occidental RPGs, which grew out of the pen-and-paper Dungeons %26 Dragons tradition.Some recent RPGs have been mixing shooter elements into the traditional RPG forumla. As dexterity with a controller becomes more important, all the numbers that define your abilities become less important. At some point, a game becomes a shooter and not an RPG. Sure Bioshock has RPG elements to it, but ultimately it's a shooter, because my ability to circle strafe is more important than anything else. Similarly, shooter skills are important in Mass Effect. I think it's still an RPG, but if you play all the way through Gears of War before you play Mass Effect, that's like gaining an extra five levels. Compare that to Knights of the Old Republic, in many ways a very similar game, where action gaming skills do not effect your combat ability in the slightest.Game genres are merging in a lot of new titles, and it makes some people uncomfortable, I think. It bothers all the snobby RPG purists out there who have hated every game since Fallout. At the same time, I think there's still a market for traditional, numbers-based RPGs, and it seems there's being less produced, especially on the console. I like diversity in my gaming. I want hybrids and the old-school games.EDIT: Spelling.
I don't realy know how to respond...Myself, I am a pretty big RPG fan in general. There are RPG's that I really enjoy and there are RPG's that I don't enjoy. Take Pokemon for example. I can't stand them. But so many people enjoy the Pokemon RPG games that obviously I'm simply missing something. And I don't really care what that something is, because I like what I like and I stick with that with the small amount of gaming time I have.I can't say that I consider any RPG less ''real'' than the next RPG, only more or less enjoyable based solely on my own personal tastes.
lol Confused me when I started reading it all over again. Good post, I agree.
That sort of thing happens in every genre though, although the type of gamer that is willing to play large RPG's seems more willing to argue that the game which moved them more is the defining title in that genre. I agree though whether or not you enjoy the style an rpg is an rpg. BTW did you post with Firefox and it messed up or something because certain paragraphs are pasted again :?.
[QUOTE=''csliney''] That sort of thing happens in every genre though, although the type of gamer that is willing to play large RPG's seems more willing to argue that the game which moved them more is the defining title in that genre.[/QUOTE]Haha, I agree. To everyone who loved Baldur's Gate, that defines an RPG, and to everyone who loved Final Fantasy, that defines an RPG, and so on. Some people can't seem to open up to the idea that there are sub-genres.
Too long to read. Basically you are complaining about those fanboys saying their RPG is the real one, mostly Western open ended vs Japanese linear? That's just how fanboy talks. RPG gener is started out as linear story and turn based combat. A Elder Scrol like game that violates those traditions is not more or less than a real RPG.RPG usually has level up and large array of weapons and items. That's pretty much it.
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well to me there are crpgs, jrpgs, and adventure rpgs. crpgs would be diablo, elder scrolls, WoW, and any other rpg focused on character development. storytelling can be weak, but there is a story to tell nevertheless. jrpgs would be final fantasy, vagrant story, and legend of legia. they offer limited exploration options and are usually linear. they focus on storytelling through cutscenes. adventure rpgs would be legend of zelda games, assassins creed and most other adventure games. they have rpg elements such as character progression (better weapons after a boss fight) and may use cutscenes for storytelling.
Eliteism doesn't just happen with RPGs but there does seem to be a stronger element of eliteism when it comes down to RPGs.It's just geeks trying look down on people.Remember over 50% of the stuff said of message boards people wouldn't dare say in real life.
[QUOTE=''venasque'']These ''snobs'' just come across as self-conscious and desperate for the approval of the community at large. Worried they might have made the ''wrong'' choice by liking one thing over another (or not liking something someone else does). Why can't people simply offer their own opinions on a subject and be happy to do so, without degrading into a flame war? More importantly, why would someone want to appear this way? Is snob the new black?[/QUOTE]I've criticised Oblivion since before it seemed ok to do so. Any time I did so it was met with cries of ''lol ur wrong, oblivion greatest rpg ever. so dungeons and killing stuff not rpg anymore?'' so I don't see where your approval of the community point comes from. Really, these lofty generalisations don't go anywhere; if you have a point to make about a game, make it.
[QUOTE=''Palantas''][QUOTE=''csliney''] That sort of thing happens in every genre though, although the type of gamer that is willing to play large RPG's seems more willing to argue that the game which moved them more is the defining title in that genre.[/QUOTE]Haha, I agree. To everyone who loved Baldur's Gate, that defines an RPG, and to everyone who loved Final Fantasy, that defines an RPG, and so on. Some people can't seem to open up to the idea that there are sub-genres.[/QUOTE]Final Fantasy = JRPGBaldurs Gate = WRPG/CRPGBoth great, both very different genres.Personally, I do feel there is need to be a little bit of a snob at times, especially when people are running around in circles calling Oblivion the best game ever made. It's a free roaming action/adventure, not an RPG. It's setting doesnt make it an RPG, if anything its a medievil GTA.For me, role playing does not equal running around doing ''whatever I like'' (narrowly defined by either killing, or not killing anything in sight, completing, or not completing side quests) but instead my ability to interact with the smaller finer points in the story.You shouldnt expect to be able to shape the whole story yourself, that might be the ultimate roleplaying experience, but it's also impossible for a developer to make. They have to come up with at most, 3 main storylines you can follow (good, neutral, evil) and then give you choice via the smaller details.This is why Fallout, Baldur's Gate, or Mass Effect are, in my mind, great roleplaying experiences than Oblivion could ever hope to be. They are packed with small details and firm choices. You either take this NPC, or that. You say this in conversation, or that and both have drastically differing outcomes depending on your stats and character build.In Oblivion everything you do is independent of everything else. Want to join the fighters guild? Awesome. Board? Want to join the assassins guild? Thats great too! I know, why dont you join allll the guild!? Yay! Forgive me, but that's for special people who can't make a choice. Spoiled if you will.With JRPG,s that is slightly different, which is why I feel they should be more widely accepted as a completely seperate genre. The focus is on storytelling, not interactivity, and the ability to flesh out your character comes from discovering all the extras the game has to offer, and by choosing how your main character develops in combat. While this is clearly not my defenition of roleplaying, and you would think I hate JRPGs, I do not. Because I can accept that different cultures like different things, and apparently the Japanse like games in this fashion. Which is fine, because as long as the story is good, so do I. I also have a fondness for random battles, something people hate far too much these days.I feel Oblivion receives far too much praise, in a similar line to The Legend of Zelda, another game that is not an RPG but is frequently hailed as one. It has neither a long, epic storyline, not a great deal of interactive detail, and as far as character customisation goes, it's completely nonexistant as you can do almost everything presented in the game with one character (I dont care about different races, and the looks when I talk about customisation)Oblivion is very much along the same lines as Halo, it's a lazy mans RPG (FPS in Halo's case) and the only reason people are so up in arms about how amazing they are is because the majority (not all, but the large majority, and however much you want to argue this, it's true) had never played anything like it before on a console because they were too young to have played any of the old style proper RPGs, and now the complete reverse of everything I have stated is ingrained into their minds. If these games were not released on a console they would never have received so much praise, but because neither genre had seen much activity when these games were released to the console market it was like cavemen discovering fire.So yeah, the short of the long is I do feel the need to be a bit snobby sometimes, but I feel it coems off a little more founded than these ''ZOMG, Bioware suuuuucks, play a reeeel AREPEEGEE'' people. I have nothing against people liking Oblivion, but I do hold it against people when those same people continually slag off some of the greatest RPGs in existence. (anything Bioware seems to be particularly popular to slag off these days.)
[QUOTE=''diablobasher''] Final Fantasy = JRPGBaldurs Gate = WRPG/CRPGBoth great, both very different genres.[/quote]That's what I was saying, and that people take these subgenres to represent the entirety of what RPGs are. That's preposterous. I think you're agreeing with me.As to the rest of your comments, I am sympathetic to what you have to say. I think a lot of this snobbery comes from newer gamers lauding the magnificence of Oblivion. Oblivion is a mass-market take on Western RPGs, and I think the game suffers for it. I have two big complaints about Oblivion:

• The scaling
• The lack of consequences

The first one's been bashed extensively by a wide array of authors, so I'm only going to summarize here. For those of you who didn't know, the monsters and treasure in Oblivion level up with you. To me, this takes a lot of the fun and progression of an RPG out of Oblivion. I will never defeat some overpowering enemy through luck or skill, and be rewarded with some mighty weapon, because everything's tied to my level. Scaling also hurts suspension of disbelief. Why am I the greatest warrior in Cyrodill, champion of the Arena...at level 5? Why is every bandit in the countryside wearing glass armor?As for my second point, you're probably thinking, ''What do you mean, oh Palantas, 'Lack of consequences'? If I go around killing people in Oblivion, I'll be arrested by the guards!'' That's not what I'm talking about. There are no story consequences for anything you do in the game. This even bothered me back in Morrowind, where you can join the Imperial Cult and the Tribunal Temple, becoming a very important person in each organization, when they have incompatible philosophies. Here in Oblivion, you can join every faction, even when it makes no sense. Factions should be mutually exclusive, or at the very least, quests should be. Imagine how much more interesting the game would have been if: I'm a high-ranking member of the Dark Brotherhood and the Fighter's Guild. I accept a contract to kill somebody important. Shortly after leaving the Dark Brotherhood lair, I'm greeted by a courier from the Fighter's Guild, who says that I am charged with protecting important somebody, who has been targeted for assassination. At that point, I actually have to make a decision, a concept lacking in Oblivion. How much more interesting would the factions have been if you could infiltrate one of them on behalf of another, and play a double or even triple agent? Alas, no; in Oblivion, I can be as morally schizophrenic as I please.Echoing diablobasher's post, I think people don't see problems like this, because they've never played the cla*ssic PC RPGs. In Fallout, you can help the good guys or the bad guys; you can't help both. In Baldur's Gate, some of the best questing in the game was in the Underdark, where you do betray people and they betray you; how you go about it depends on whether you're good, evil, or indifferent. Both Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect are populated by deep characters, who will question your decisions, leave your party, or even attack you based on your actions. At the same time, you can influence them to good or ill, whereas in Oblivion, I can slaughter entire cities, but Jauffre and Martin Septim couldn't care less.To say that Oblivion is the greatest Occidental RPG ever is to blatantly ignore its flaws. I've said this before, that while Oblivion has a lot of breadth, it doesn't have a lot of depth. Play Torment and Oblivion back to back, if you're curious what I mean by ''depth.''
You brought up, and elaborated upon some major points that I failed to articulate in as meaningful a manner because i'd just crawled out of bed :PBut yeah, storyline interactivity is what it's all about for me. Oblivion has none of that whatsoever which in my mind makes it nothing more than a free roam action/adventure. Which is why i'm so so angry that the people responsible for it are now busy ruining one of the greatest franchises of all time. (Not gonna start that whole discussion again about having not played the game yet. It's clear to see from bethesdas statements and artwork that the game has lost 90% of what it once was)
[QUOTE=''Palantas'']Big Oblivion post.[/QUOTE]I see your big Oblivion post, and raise you my big Oblivion post. [spoiler] Story - The story in Oblivion is, quite frankly, terrible. You are told that there's a demonic invasion hell bent on devouring the land and that you must find Martin immediately...yet nothing happens if you don't. The demons just wait at their little gates waiting for you to close them. What's the point of an invasion if they never invade? And for something as threatening as an invasion, nobody in the world gives a ****.

Dialogue/Voice acting - Oblivion features some of the worst dialogue I've ever come across. ''I saw a mudcrab the other day'' is uttered 700 times. After that you're treated to dull, repetitive drivel that takes itself far too seriously. Want some humour or personality? Look somewhere else. Speaking of personality...

NPCs - Not one person in Oblivion, apart from the main characters, have a personality between them. They're voiced by 7 people who utter the aforementioned crappy dialogue which essentially makes every NPC the same person, just with a different face.

Radiant AI - The eternally hyped radiant AI system is ****. NPCs walk to the store, look at the wall for 6 hours, utter broken dialogue to eachother (oftentimes the same voice) then go home. The normal AI is also terrible as enemies just gung-ho and friendlies continually run in front of you when you're attacking.

Repetitive - Every dungeon is the same, every fort is the same, every ruin is the same, every Oblivion gate is the same and the game is just a giant forest. Virtually every quest involves going to X and killing everything along the way.

Now, why its an awful role playing game:

Character creation - No matter what character you create, it will always end up as a thief-warrior-mage. This means that there is no reason to specialise your character. There's also the problem of...

Character vs player skill - In Oblivion, emphasis is placed on player skill. This is the exact opposite of how it should be. If I'm roleplaying a character, success should be based on their skill, not mine. Therefore, a character with 0 in lockpicking and speechcraft can be successful in either due to player skill. The same can be said for combat. A ''mage'' with 0 in blade can pick up a sword and win a battle due to player skill.

That goddamned scaled leveling - This breaks the game, simple as that. You will never find an area where you find your character being destroyed, no will never find unique loot. Isn't it a tad game breaking that the armor you grounded your character to get is being worn by lowly bandits? Or how someone can become the most powerful fighter in the land at level 1? Or can stop a demonic invasion at level 2?

Choices and consequences - Oblivion does not feature meaning choices and consequences. Whenever the player should be able to make a choice, the game either A) Doesn't present it or B) Makes it for them. You know the rules of the Dark Brotherhood? If you tell someone about it they'll kick you out? Well you can't, even if you want to. You cannot choose to join enemy factions, you cannot choose to talk to enemies, you cannot choose to solve a quest peacefully.

Nothing matters - In the grand scheme of things, nothing you do in Oblivion has any consequence whatsoever. You can join every guild and no quest overlaps, you can kill everyone (not really since certain people can't be killed) and nobody cares. Seriously, go kill everybody in Chorrol and serve your jail time. Then talk to a random NPC and see what they think of you. If you kill a child in Fallout you're labeled a child killer, bounty hunters will then be after you for the whole game and people will be reluctant to give you quests. That's choice and consequence. Nothing you do in Oblivion affects the game world. Nothing.

Quite simply, Oblivion is a poor game and an abomination of a role playing game. If you want a longer explanation, read the RPGCodex review. Oblivion lovers will just ignore this and say ''lol you didn't play it'' or ''lol ur wrong'', but people who can think for themselves will agree with me. How a game with the above flaws (and admittedly more) can be called ''one of the best role playing games ever made'' is a ******* mystery. [/spoiler]
[QUOTE=''RobbieH1234''] [QUOTE=''Palantas'']Big Oblivion post.[/QUOTE]I see your big Oblivion post, and raise you my big Oblivion post. [/QUOTE]May I shake your hand sir? May I? :)How people can tolerate 300 hours of that drivel confounds me. I'm personally beginning to wonder how many of this recent plague of Oblivion appreciation threads are started by Bethesda plants in order to drum up more hype for Fallout 3. God knows they did that with Star Trek and how they tried to poison the fans against each other. The voice acting really does my nut though, they went on and on and on about how important the massive amounts of voice acting was in the game, but seriously, it's like they just got the offices cleaner and then the 6 people least competant at their jobs to sit in a booth all day and do one take lines. The only competant VA was Patrick Stewarts, but he's only int he game for like 10 minutes. What a crock.
[QUOTE=''diablobasher''][QUOTE=''RobbieH1234''] [QUOTE=''Palantas'']Big Oblivion post.[/QUOTE]I see your big Oblivion post, and raise you my big Oblivion post. [/QUOTE]May I shake your hand sir? May I? :)How people can tolerate 300 hours of that drivel confounds me. I'm personally beginning to wonder how many of this recent plague of Oblivion appreciation threads are started by Bethesda plants in order to drum up more hype for Fallout 3. God knows they did that with Star Trek and how they tried to poison the fans against each other. The voice acting really does my nut though, they went on and on and on about how important the massive amounts of voice acting was in the game, but seriously, it's like they just got the offices cleaner and then the 6 people least competant at their jobs to sit in a booth all day and do one take lines. The only competant VA was Patrick Stewarts, but he's only int he game for like 10 minutes. What a crock.[/QUOTE]Well, I've made that post, a post outlining why I hate Bethesda (I'll post it if people want to read it) and I've a million randoms things to say about Fallout 3. The attitude towards these games is baffling. I often see ''ur just hating for the sake of hating'' towards Oblivion and ''we know nothing about fallout 3. don't bash til u play it'' towards Fallout 3. I don't see why people are allowed praise games to high heavens (without explaining said praise) while I'm not allowed be critical by supporting my points.Yahtzee's point about voice acting was spot on; you often see people talking to themselves about the store they robbed owned by themselves, or that people change voices mid-conversation. Also, Beth lied about everything. I guess I'm just spoiled; that's what happens when you've played Black Isle or Black Isle influenced games.
[QUOTE=''RobbieH1234'']Yahtzee's point about voice acting was spot on; you often see people talking to themselves about the store they robbed owned by themselves, or that people change voices mid-conversation. Also, Beth lied about everything. I guess I'm just spoiled; that's what happens when you've played Black Isle or Black Isle influenced games. [/QUOTE]People say Yahtzee is nothing but a comedian. But in reality all comedy (well, apart from some of the insane random stuff) has it's roots in truth.I guess maybe you're right, maybe we have been spoiled by quality products.I have a very similar problem with the community at large, an overwhelming number of responses along the lines of ''You are just hating it for the sake of it/because it's 'the in thing to do''' which it total rubbish tbh. And very frustrating, since when was someone allowed to love something unfoundedly, but i'm not allowed to hate it for perfectly justifiable reasons?! It's madness I tell you. (Nobody make a sparta joke.)As for the ''Don't hate it until you play it'' responses, i've debunked them countless times by explaining why it's plain to see from Bethesda's statements, and simple screenshots (given the screenshots have proven the art direction has been trashed, and their statements prove they are not interested in making a game for the fans of Fallout, but for Oblivion fans instead.)I won't go into mega detail, i'm so tired of doing that only to receive moronic responses, or to have those points simply be ignored and i'm sure you already know what i'm talking about anyway so theres no point bringing it up.